Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pwning, May 10, 2009.

  1. Pwning Lord

    Ever since his election to president, I've been following all the news good and bad and all of Obamas past records from voting to family etc, this man is driving me crazy.

    Top things I hate about Obama.
    He talks shit on the Bible and how the Constitution is flawed.

    He is spending all of our money and digging a financial grave for all of us to lay in.

    He's saving all these failed businesses instead of letting them fail so others can sprout up in their place.

    He's anti-life as his voting record and executive orders have shown on spending U.S. dollars on abortion.

    He skipped the National day of prayer ceremony, and shrugged it off to pray alone...

    He's bowed to the saudi king and not the Queen of England, prayed at a mosque in Turkey, yet had a college cover up a crucifix in an auditorium where he spoke to students.

    He has spoken of redistribution of wealth as a good thing, yet all we seem to have so far is GM owned by the fed and $10.2 trillion in debt, to be paid back by us I assume....

    He's pulling troops out of Iraq and sending them strait to afganistan, as this happens, violence is peaking in Iraq and many people are dying.

    He's called America ignorant and appologized to countries who don't like us just to make friends.

    He's failed to release his birth certificate and is continuing his court battle, alreading spending hundreds of thousands to postpone the case.

    He won't release his college transcripts or thesis for all to see his accomplishments.

    He is destroying our country and its driving me insane.

    If anyone can tell me 3 things Obama has done to help us little people to put my mind at ease and to allow me to hope and maybe trust Obama as the leader of the free world, I'd appreciate it.

    /discuss, but be civil and respectful to opinions of others.
  2. Shagbot Member


    "There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party...and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt--until recently... and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties." -Gore Vidal.
  3. Pwning Lord

    Decent video, however i am more concerned that the party in charge and the president in charge is doing the wrong thing by spending, borrowing, and taxing, instead of letting businesses fail and allowing the people to reestablish a better economy. Inflation is going to fuck all of us at the bottom and the people at the top seem to be clueless.

  4. Ardus Member

    Good things about Obama:

    1. He's black.

    2. He's African.

    3. He's an African-American.

  5. As long as you guys keep things civil down there so us Canadians can keep drinking beer I dont care who you put in charge!
  6. Borric Der Kriegsminister

    Oh Pwning, Pwning, Pwning... Have you not learned anything from our vent discussions? It seems you are still half-ass listening to extremist right wing talk radio and finding soundbites without actually comprehending them. Still...

    I'm actually going to take the time to address your 'concerns'. Why? because it's fun...

    What's wrong with talking shit about the Bible? Anyone who has even half a brain knows it's fiction. This includes the leading theologians, church hierarchies, and a significant slice of the majority of religious lay persons. Just about the only folks who think the Bible is 'true' are the uninformed, uneducated and extremists of all flavors. The Bible is what it is: a set of moral guidelines to help people live better lives. It's filled with fictional parables that teach lessons about living well.

    As far as the Constitution, no document is perfect. Even ours. The world's most democratic (small 'd', not affiliated with the Democratic party), the German Constitution isn't even perfect. But it is a better document, after all, it was written for the Germans by the Allies (us, the UK and France) after WWII and had the benefit of our experiences with democracy.

    But back to the point: what exactly is Obama saying about these documents? Where? In what context? I'd say you haven't actually heard Obama say anything. Rather, you've 'heard' some right wing nutjob bitch and moan without any basis in fact. If you have some evidence, please share...

    I'll take these two together. First, he's not spending our money, he's spending our great-grandchildren's money. King George Bush II already spent the rest. But more on topic. Yes Obama's trying something and no one really knows if it's going to work. I don't. But he is doing something. face it, if he does nothing, he gets blasted, if he does something, he gets blasted. This isn't partisan, it happens on both sides of the aisle, no matter which party is in power. So what does he do? I'm not smart enough to figure it out. neither is he. But he's taken advice from the world's top economists and is trying to right the ship. That's a huge improvement from the cowboy who got us into this mess relying on his 'gut'. I'm willing to let this play out, as no one knows the answers here. I'm just glad we have an educated President who listens to other educated people on both sides of the aisle before making decisions.

    As for the failing companies, what do you think would happen if GM, Chrysler, Citibank, AIG and BoA just all filed for bankruptcy? That's easy- our economy would simply implode. Even an economic layman can see that. Hundreds of thousands (if not millions through collateral damage) of jobs would be lost overnight. people's savings and investments would cease to exist. No one would step up and take their places. Game over.

    Anti-Life is hate speech for Pro-Choice. Even though you whine like you have ovaries, you don't. Therefore- it's not your fucking decision! You can attempt to influence someone you care about not to have an abortion, but that's it. I don't like abortion. With all the other options available I wish every woman considering abortion would choose something else. But I support her right to decide what to do with her body. I doubt you want your taxes to go up to support all these now born unwanted children. Right wingers always seem to forget this. Those who have financial means can always afford to find an abortion if they're illegal. The millions who wouldn't be able to just dumped these kids on your lap to support. Seeing how much you hate the welfare state, I'm appalled that you aren't pro-abortion! Think of all the money you'd save?

    Good for him! I want no religion in my government! I don't care if he's Christian, Muslim, Mormon, or pray to Shiva the destroyer, keep it out of government. We are a secular state with freedom to believe how one chooses. When you start legislating based on your religious beliefs, you alienate people and strip their rights. because as everyone knows, just about everyone believes in a different way.

    I'm glad he only bowed to the Saudi King, Bush had been sucking the guy's cock for 8 years. Again with the religion thing... I'm sorry, but White-Trash Jesus has no business in my government...

    I still find it amazing that poor white trash hate the idea of redistribution of wealth. Pwning, you're poor and likely will never make more that 50-60k a year. This doesn't affect you at all, well unless you count the tax breaks for being poor. Your money isn't getting redistributed to poorer people. The CEO of GM's is. You'll never make enough money for this to affect you, yet you fight for the Man who keeps you in your place and ensures that you have to work your ass off just to survive. What are you, some sort of economic masochist?

    Fuck Iraq. None of our troops should ever have been sent there to die. Who gives a fuck about Saddam Hussein? He was never a threat to us. The terrorists were in Afghanistan until we lured them into Iraq. We should have surged to where the terrorists really were. We're finally doing that now, 6 years and 5000+ American lives and 150,000+ Iraqi lives later.

    I know that you're racist and xenophobic, but we're moving more and more to a world economy. Plain and simple fact. We may not see it in our lifetimes, but our children, perhaps grandchildren definitely will. It's nice to be on good terms with our neighbors and have people respect us for the world leader we are. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. It's about time we had some intelligent foreign policy to make up for the clusterfuck of the last 8 years...

    I'll take these two together. All I can say is wow, you just can't let it go, can you? His original birth certificate was produced when he announced his candidacy. All court cases (there were 2) claiming what you claim have been thrown out, because he's a legal, natural-born american citizen. You're like a drowning man holding onto a toothpick in an attempt to stay afloat. Silly and without results.

    As for his transcripts and thesis. If you are an employer and have a valid reason to see his transcripts, then file a request with his university. As for his thesis, all you need to do is go to the library of the university where he wrote it, and they will have a copy on file. You'll be allowed to read it, but not photocopy or borrow it without Obama's and the University's prior written consent. That's bog standard. You can get my Master's thesis that way.

    Well the latter half of that is true. You are going even more insane. but not because of Obama. Because you half-ass listen to extreme right-wing nutjobs and are gullible enough to believe in the half truths they spew. You like them because they hate mexicans, blacks and jews just like you. You're such a throwback Pwning. It would almost be cute to see you living in the 1950's in your head if only it wasn't so scary...

    As I said above, Obama is trying to unfuck us. And no one knows if it will work. You want to be upset with someone? Try Bush and his cronies. Their fiscal irresponsibility, deregulation to drive greed and profit set the stage for the Wall Street assholes to rape and pillage. Now we have to live with it. And hope that the worst is behind us, or at least, close to being behind us...
  7. Von.Manstein New Member

    As much as I hate deficits, one must familiarize themselves with a little financial history (especially the Great Depression) to see how much better of a job the federal government has done this time around. In all fairness, it's been mostly the work of the Federal Reserve, and as chance has it, Bernanke is a pretty well-known historian on the Great Depression.

    Though deficit spending is going to need to be cut in a few years once the economy gets better, it is the height of fiscal irresponsibility to apply a blanket rule of being a "deficit hawk" when we are living through the greatest world economic downturn since WWII. There are also very strong deflationary pressures going on right now in our economy, being that we're in a "balance sheet recession" caused by excessive debt levels thoughout all sectors, and therefore there has been a strong need to pump liquidity into the economy at the present time. Again, the lion's share of this is being done by the Federal Reserve, not Obama, and the Fed is basically free of interference by other branches of the government (thankfully, since most people are ignoramuses when it comes financial economics).

    It's no mystery that there is a strong consesus among economists in support of the herculean efforts undertaken by governments across the world to overcome this crisis, and I think that matters a lot more than what some political yahoos would be saying.

    If it makes you feel any better, I'm still a registered Republican. I'll more than likely be pulling an Arlen Specter pretty soon, since the yokels running the GOP are seeming to get worse and worse. It's also rather shameful how they've handled economic policy, and it's basically just insulting to the intelligence of everybody when they don't take such a situation fully seriously.
  8. Glisseal Lord

    I'm gonna have to take Borric's side. Any one that says we are doing worse than the last 8 yrs needs to rethink and take more notes. Even though we haven't really seen the results of what Obama is doing "I personally feel better that he is DOING SOMETHING other than nothing". All I've seen from the Republican's is them trying to Make Obama fail. THIS ISN"T A TIME TO PLAY SILLY ASS GAMES! OBAMA WON, GET OVER IT....NOW LETS ALL WORK TOGETHER AND GET THE COUNTRY ROLLING AGAIN!
  9. Palebrew Inactive Elder

    Well which is it, the federal government doing a good job or the Federal Reserve? Also I would argue that both the Federal Reserve and the federal government are the main reason we are in the boat we are in currently, so they get no praise for fixing their mistakes till it's done and corrected for the future.
  10. Pwning Lord

    Every time the economy has a bubble that's about to pop, the fed puts more money into it, Greenspan did it for Bush because of Clinton, and Geithner is doing it for Obama because of Bush, however the only solutions to unfucking the economy are clear yet unacceptable to the messiah.

    1) Let businesses fail, people will go out and get other jobs with businesses that aren't failing or perhaps make their own new businesses.

    2) Cut back on the size of government and government programs to have more money to pay off the countries debt.

    3) Lower taxes on everyone.

    4) Allow the recession to do what its meant to do, which is unfuck the economy without the help of the federal government.

    History repeats itself, we need to learn from the mistakes of the past, not repeat them 10 fold. Oh and Borric, The election is over, I am no longer picking sides of democrat or republican, I am picking American and I want my fucking freedom or so help me God, I will take it!
  11. Von.Manstein New Member

    Well, I should clarify in that it is the Federal Reserve (obviously part of the federal government), not the office of the President that is doing most of the work.

    Though I'd certainly agree that improper regulation of the mortgate and derivatives markets played a big part in this crisis, at the end of the day, the massive trade deficits and inflows of capital from East Asia were the root cause of all of this IMO.

    Though higher interest rates (which, realistically, may not have been reasonably pursued at the time) during the residential real estate boom may have pricked the bubble earlier, and better regulations could have realigned the skewed incentives of the firms originating subprime mortgages could have helped, it wouldn't have addressed the root causes of all of this. It simply would have made this less severe, but we'd still have had low long-term interest rates in the US from the influx of Chinese dollars, and that would have likely still led to the speculation on real estate prices.

    And yeah, I can't wait to go get all my holiday pets, new dances, and stylish new haircuts in WoW. The game has TOTALLY gone down the right direction with the new expansions.
  12. Von.Manstein New Member

    Well, not so much. I think if you look at what happened in the Great Depression you'll see that the Federal Government made what would have been a severe recession and turned it into the Great Depression. This was done primarily through piss-poor monetary policy, but also, to some extent, by terrible mismanagement by Congress and the various Presidents.

    Though there is certainly a correction going on (and needs to be), it would be wise to appreciate the subtelties going on with everything. This economic crisis is NO bullshit. We're certainly treading a LOT of uncharted territory on this. There is danger in this that we will come out with overregulation of the financial sector, stifling economic growth in the future by castrating its role in efficiently allocating capital in a much better fashion than the government would do.

    At the same time, Federal agencies CAN provide a valuable role in this in the right areas, based upon the circumstances. We as Americans are frankly incredibly lucky to have Bernanke in right now, instead of Greenspan. He is very intelligent, and, from his background, he is keen to learn from the mistakes in the past. This country cannot afford the absolutely catastrophic repeat of mismanagement seen during the 1930s.
  13. Pwning Lord

    If anyone can tell me 3 things Obama has done to help us little people to put my mind at ease and to allow me to hope and maybe trust Obama as the leader of the free world, I'd appreciate it.

    Thanks for all of you who dodged this simple question, since nobody wants to answer, I will.

    1) He's borrowed more money from other countries = raised the national debt.
    2) He's already raised taxes and I expect more before less.
    3) He's been spending the fuck out of money we don't have, printing money to pay failed business to fail, look at Chrysler and GM, both going bankrupt.

    If Obama did nothing but cut government and let failed businesses(votes) fail instead of wasting our tax money on them, the recession would cease and a depression would be prevented.
  14. Von.Manstein New Member

    I'm trying to approach this more from pragmatism than a viewpoint/ideology. To fully explain myself, I'd probably have to drone on for hours about economics, history, etc. In a nutshell, the long-term pain of higher government debt levels will be a lot less than the pain of an economic catastrophe. Remember, this is a GLOBAL crisis, and most every world government is in a very similar position to ourselves, some better, some worse.

    From a stricly selfish perspective, I'm in my mid-20s and will be one of the people having to pay all of this off. Though it's not something I'm happy about, I understand the ramifications of not acting.
  15. Pwning Lord

    Are you saying that its better to bailout failed business models to prevent job loss while spending tax dollars, then when the business fails anyway and the jobs are lost, the only thing we did by stepping in was creat national debt and postpone the inevitable.

    I am going to laugh my ass off when everyone else wakes up and realizes what's really going on.
  16. Von.Manstein New Member

    On this specifically, it depends on the circumstance. For any of the Detroit automakers, I don't think they should be receiving government help. Since they have many billions invested in PP&E, a foreign automaker that has been under better management will likely buy up chunks of these companies at fire-sale prices when they go bankrupt. I don't think they have a wide enough impact on the economy to be "too big to fail", and I do agree that it sets a bad precedent. However, when you're looking at actual dollar figures, this is only a few dozen billion dollars, so it's basically a drop in the bucket that I won't lose sleep over with everything that's going on, even if it is an incorrect approach IMO.

    However, when we're talking about AIG, WaMu, and other firms comprising hundreds of billions of dollars, they absolutely are "too big to fail". They comprise a huge portion of the economy, and failures of that size have a massive negative impact on the wider economy. Frankly, in hindsight, I don't think it was wise to let Lehman Brothers fail in the way it did, either.
  17. Pwning Lord

    So what do we do if these "too big to fail" companies keep fucking up and losing money due to a failed business model? Do we continue to bail them out with tax money? How much is too much, to be honest, as a tax payer, i'd like to not spend any of my tax money on a private company that is blatantly wasting money because the fed has their back.

    If the businesses don't fail, we will never recover. The Government is supposed to do what's best for the citizens, not the corporations. The government is fucking all of us and the general population is so dumbed down they have no clue.

    Please watch the video in my signature if you want to know and really care about our future.
  18. Likort Destroyer of Forum Trolls

    What the fuck Pwning, do you even realize how dumb and delusional you sound? You are having serious trouble communicating your ideas without sounding like an idiot, or even worse, an asshole. You have chosen the wrong audience to share your worries with, we are simply unable to show any empathy for what you hold to be true. Borric had some pity to reply, Von Manstein seems to show a bit of interest but if you had even the slightest point the thread would be bursting with replies. Instead, most people don't even bother to read what you are trying to say, nobody intends to change your mind because nobody gives a fuck about your opinion on this subject.

    I urge you to just leave it alone, you won't change anyone's opinion about the subject, but you sure are on your way changing people's opinion about you. We don't have a problem with people who have different opinions on a large number of issues, but preaching like a madman and forcing your opinion down other people's throats is not gonna accomplish anything for you.
  19. Borric Der Kriegsminister

    Jeesh Pwning... i tried to help you out, but you just don't understand, do you? You toss around phrases like 'failed business model' like you know what they mean, when obviously, your use of the term proves you do not. The automotive, financial and insurance industries are not 'failed business models'. They work, and if managed right, will continue to do so. Just because some companies have let greed overshadow responsibility only says that that particular company has failed, not the entire business model. I know that you're trying to hang in this discussion that your trolling post started, but you need to remember that there are quite a few of us that are both intelligent and educated. Lots of folks have Bachelor's degrees, and quite a few have Masters' and higher.

    I'm not saying that you're stupid, merely ignorant. Like I said above, you operate off of catch phrases and buzzwords generated by extremist right wing talk radio. You can't drop in here and drop this shit without having any understanding of how the economy works, economic theory and history. It leaves you all invective and no substance...

    Oh and to answer your questions about three things that Obama has done for America:

    1. Restored our standing in the world. The world (for the most part) wants to like us and hope we succeed (because they are heavily invested in us). An Obama presidency has restored the world's faith that America isn't populated by ignorant white trash evangelical racist assholes. They know there are still a lot of them, but a smart man is now in charge.

    2. Obama has taken steps to get our economy on the right track. Only time will tell if he's right, but he's trying to do something positive for us.

    3. He's getting us out of Iraq and into Afghanistan. You know, where we should have been in the first place. He's actually targeting the people who want to harm us and our way of life. He's not being a redneck cowboy and just killing brown people.

    4. He's lowered YOUR taxes. With the what 25k you make a year, you barely pay anything as it is. I think your taxes should go up. But he doesn't. Lucky for you he's the president and not me.

    5. He's in the process of instituting a national health care system. Whether government or private, it doesn't matter. What it means is that most people will have access to better health care at a lower cost. Even you.

    That's five off of the top of my head. I'm sure I could find more if I looked around a bit. What I say to you is stop being part of the problem. He gets his four years to try to make a difference. If he does a good job, he gets another four. Even Fox News has his current approval rating at 63%. Bush's highest was 48%, and averages somewhere around 20%. So, go to work, do your job beating up poor black people with your baton and hope for the best. Stop listening to whatever assmonkey on the radio that gets you fired up. It's not good for what's left of your sanity...
  20. Von.Manstein New Member

    It's funny, because at a basic level, I don't even disagree with you (I'm a pretty free market guy as well). However, when we're talking a manageable level of increased public debt (interest rates are around zero, remember), or a contraction of 25% in GDP, you better believe the former is a better option. This is going to "cost" the Average Joe a hell of a lot more than an increase of national debt, which also basically being experienced by pretty much every state on earth outside of China (big foreign currency reserves FTW). Remember that's a much bigger drop in employment levels as well, which hurts everybody.

    At the end of the day, is it better to let the ship sink to prove a point, or is it better to bend the rules to take extraordinary measures for extraordinary circumstances? I'm much more relieved every day that Uncle Sam, by and large, has taken the latter stance (and most world governments as well).

    Considering I've been reading economics, history, etc. pretty voraciously since I was about 7 years old (yeah, I'm weird like that), and still do at least an hour or two a day, I hope you can understand that I'm a bit reluctant that a YouTube video, that is probably highly politically charged, will somehow open my eyes in ways that haven't happened yet. I basically bombard myself with as much of this sort of information every day. This also requires me to filter out what isn't important or relevant, so I'm going to put that YouTube video in that category.

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