Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dagnasti, Jul 8, 2008.
Its all myths all religions are all man made loads of bs... review the past and you will understand the future. And yea verms right on many levels most of the religions of today were all based off of sun worship from early man.
I'll listen to you the day you have something interesting to say
1) Himiko as the daughter of the sun and the sun in one
2) Himiko as the light of the world, the earthly manifestation of Amaterasu
3) Himiko as the leader of the Yamatai, the way and guide for the people
4) Himiko as saying she is the chosen of the heavens, brought forth by the kami
5) Himiko's cult drives the darkness from the world
6) Himiko speaks for the gods, straddles both the earthly and heavenly realms
7) Himiko ate bread
8) Himiko's staff was the spear Izanagi used in the creation of the world
9) Himiko had a boat with ppl on it
Himiko came before Christ. I think Jesus is really based off the Nippon mythos
So basically your entire argument comes from copying/pasting a couple of webpages with no outside context what-so-ever. Because Churchward wrote it in 1924 it must be completely and totally true, ignoring all the new discoveries and advances in science and hitsory over the last 84 years. You can make parallel's between Jesus and plenty of other myths predating christianity, there's nothing special about that. What is failed to be taken into account here is the context of the Egyptian mythos, of the Greek mythos, of jews, how things progressed and changed and assimilated throughout history and WHY. It also fails to take into account language difficencies as I'm positive Churchward wasn't proficient in the old languages, just english and german.
Christianity did steal many ideas from many belief systems. We're not arguing that. What we're arguing is what your great emphasis on Christianity pulling most of it's stuff from the Egyptians.
As I said the Sun symbolism exists across all philosophies. Not much is original. Tree in Eden? Taken from Sumer myths. Death and resurrection? Sumer and Egyptian. All-encompassing 'divinity'? Sumer and Egyptian. Most all stuff these days isn't original. No one argues that. What gets argued is the HOW of the connections and the WHY of the connections... which is what we were doing. Because just about anyone worth a damn in history and theology will tell you Christianity is most heavily based on Judaism (I would hope)
I said you were right verm ok then you fucking tool!
Im an athiest I dont believe in religion or a god or gods there arent any never were never will be.
MANY of the Stories / Ceremonies of Catholicism are taken from Egypt. Monotheism taken from Judaism. Throw some juda style stories in a book mixed with some gnostic texts a touch of sun god worship texts and you have the bible. Throw in a little fear in the book to scare people of their almighty god and you have a herd of sheep called Catholicism.
I'm just trying to get you going. I know your atheist
Why this gets argued is because people cannot face the possible truth as to what this comes from. For some its Taboo for some its lunacy and they like to stay in their little box of whats real and whats not. Look up the Hindu Veda texts. Or better yet the The Mahabharata. That will take you down a cookie trail. While reading that, pay attention to the "myth" of that story alongside with the word Vimana. Another cool subject which I was reading about awhile ago was a book called the Eadwine Psalter. This book I believe was 14th century or some shit, but there a fuck ton of paintings with Jesus or a character that looks like the Jesus character, eating shrooms. Basically showing jesus was actually a Shamanic type character.
Here are some pics
Wow what an interesting discussion. Verm is kind of on the right track, but his source material makes too many jumps without filling in some important gaps and I think that is the cause of the confusion.
The Philosophy of Jesus is pretty clear cut and would be helpful to everyone in Rome's later stages, especially to Romans. Pacifism is heralded repeatedly, for instance. However, the Theology of Jesus is mind boggling when placed in the historical context. This is believed to be one of the things that got the Knights Templar in trouble, they went to Jerusalem and found historical context. The Mystics within the Jewish tradition have some pretty specific goals in mind for the Messiah, namely dealing with the Flood. According to the Kabbalah we're still in the Flood (explaining this detail goes way beyond the scope of this post, but Kabbalists aren't alone in this opinion as it is the single most profound philosophical point in all of Judaism and it's predecessors). So look at it from their point of view, if it is 30CE and you're a Jew living in Jerusalem under Roman tyranny and some guy is running around calling himself the Messiah while preaching pacifism but not dealing with a) The Flood, or b) The Romans. This guy wouldn't get any air time.
Most people who do any real thinking on this come to the conclusion that the Romans made him up ipso facto at ~300CE to try to keep everyone in line. Remember this was when Rome was in decline and there was all kinds of crazy going on. They needed to unify their many foreign lands that they'd conquered. The Jews' monotheism sounded like a great solution to the increasingly tiresome bother of having multiple competing pantheons in their various territories. Sure enough there was even a clause in the Tora for some additions, so they shoe-horned in some stuff they thought would sell and called it JAWS 2: THE SON OF GOD (It is time to get your hair wet!)
At this point Judaism was popular, but not nearly as fun as a lot of the other stuff going around. Honestly, if you can, avoid any religion that comes out of the desert; they're all so grim. So they had to find some way of making the monotheistic parts of Judiasm work with the more popular parts of the other traditions. Everyone loved the Winter Solstice and Vernal Equinox, you gotta keep those! There were some commonality among many of the polytheistic cults, like the idea of everyone being a part of some greater body of god (This is why I like Nuit as the proto-monotheistic diety, since she is supposed to be the infinite night sky and all the stars and "every man is a star" is one of her lines). Even in the farthest lands of the Hindus and Buddhists this was popular. So they work in the "We are the Body of Christ" and a few other catchy ideas and they had it!
Remember the Romans were unashamed about making up Religion and they had quite a lot of practice by this point. The Greeks unabashedly re-branded the Egyptian Gods and the Romans came up and did the same to the Greeks.
So is Jesus Horus (the Son) or is Jesus Osiris (the Risen)? Or maybe even some Japanese God? Arguing that point gets ridiculous once you get past the one about the Romans making him up as they went along.
I can't do Atheism or any of the modern-nihilist stuff, because I've taken LSD. Personally I like Pantheism, there isn't much heavy lifting (or kneeling) and I get to love everyone and everything without worrying about those people or things offending a Supreme Being... since all of those people and things are a part of that Supreme Being just as much as I am. There might not have been a Jesus, but if there had been I'm pretty sure he would have wanted me to live like this; more so than making sure my brow is ritually moistened.
Ziegiest videos however that shit is spelled explains quite a bit and is rather interesting, on how different sun gods were created and formed into different religions. Man today has twisted things around to make it sound totally different.
As we go off subject some here if you do your research of the past it all makes sense reading the bible or trying to understand religion today is just a mind fuck.
Each old god or gods explained at one time to another each had a virgin birth, born the same day (Based off of 12 horoscopes), died ressurected 3 days later and there are alot of them. Each civilization has their own version and in some aspects they are really all the same thing the SUN! Its there every day, but folks now have taken it out of context and put a super being to off set it.
ON with old gods...
Just never brought to light as it would destroy the credability of certain religions today, To bad we still live in a society that still looks at free thinking as the work of the devil.
Since when does doing drugs make you believe there is a god you fucking twit, many of us here have experimented its doesnt mean we saw something like a supreme being, Maybe back in the day these priests were doing some good shrooms saw some shit and bam lets write a book to take control.
Athiesm has been around for a long time most of the founding fathers of the US were Athiests or agnostics they escaped england because of a big on RELIGION the ignorant people of america always gets me going,.
When I leave work I will post more about this sort of stuff. As for the bible there is a FUCK ton of Alchemical numbers and meanings. Much of the hidden stuff within the texts - Bible / Kabalah / Koran. The universe is fractal and based on math. Therefore, in any logic thinking you'd think there was an intelligence behind it.There are numbers used, and these numbers break down to specific meanings with PHI. I'll get into the this shit when I get home though if I have time. For the died resurrected 3 days later, that is based off of the Winter solstice when the sun goes away for 3 days and then rises again. The sun resurrected! Also, I will get into the Horus Jesus connection more when I get home rather than the one example that I copied / pasted.
Zeitgest is a good way to start to take the lids off of the eyes, but the majority of that video is fear based and I am not in that line of thinking so it doesn't completely resonate with me. Ya you can call that denial, but I KNOW for fact there is a greater truth to it all. I am with Detritus on the LSD / Shrooms and I have been through other events in my life that tell me otherwise. We are gods that are in amnesia.
Yes I know on the zietgist shit I never said it was all there alot of the opening your eyes shit vids or info these days always comes with a hidden agenda.
Your going overboard with the number thing this is a simple discussion better not bring some conspiracy shit in here.
Uhm, your retarded if you think its a conspiracy. Your right Drak, Phi and Universal numbers are conspiracies. And please for the love of god stop using that fucking overused word that doesn't even make sense to what your referring to. Go back to your bubble
Well most folks like to go into conspiracy theory bullshit when you enter new realms
And that's one of the biggest problems of our society.
Was just a statement a general statment,
Oh man where to begin,
one thing we must keep in mind is that you have your opinion i will have minds thus we probably won't agree.
Did Christianity steal some ideas from other religions? Sure i have no problem in saying that. Other Christians might but I don't. So what if we took some ideas? Take the good leave the bad. One of the most notable ideas we took is the idea of the Devil Which came from Babylonians not the Egyptians. I recommend the book The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark for more connections if you like. Now the problem really is who did Christianity really get influence by? The answer seems to me.
One being the Greeks, with information being able to move around because of Hellenism. The only books that these people would have had is the Odyssey and the Illiad. Now I am not saying that Egyptians may have not have also influence them but when? There is no evidence to support your claim. All you are doing is showing similarities between the two stories. This is not evidence. how can ignorant Fishermen really know about Egyptian lore? Its not like they had wikipedia to help them. On the other hand we know for a fact that they came from Judaism. they also lived in area occupied by the Romans Thus being influence by the Romans is quite likely as well. The Egyptians may have been first but its not like they were very popular during this time period. Ultimately the ideas of the Egyptians did not last and were overtaken by Christianity and Islam. Now i am not saying they could not have influence there understanding.
One of the Unique things about Christianity is when Jesus says "The first shall be last and Last shall be first." To my recollection this is first time that this type of idea is introduce. Again i can be corrected. Did Horus die for the people of the world? I don't know to be quite honest maybe you can answer it. Was he fully man fully God? The point i am trying to make is that Sure they may have influence by you are mistaken if you think we got the story of Jesus from the Egyptians. We know there was a Man name Jesus. That is a Fact. There is many sources on this issue. Whether he was actually the son of God and died to save the world is up for debate. You would disagree and I would disagree with you. The other problem you face is that you think the Gospels are Synthesis and make a nice comfortable and understandable picture of Jesus. Yet this is simply wrong. Read the Matthew mark and Luke then read John. You be saying wait a minute there something wrong here. The New testament is very Chaotic. Thus i would disagree with you analysis.
I loled when i read this. there is also mysterious pink elephant ruling the world by the way.
Woah k, going a bit overboard guys. There are problems galore all over the place that we really really really need to watch out for. To tie this back to the whole tarot card discussion, the card of 'The Fool' represents this quite nicely. Lots of good shit to be said and all that, but be careful....
Verm - Those pics you posted, if from the 14th century, came a full 1300 years after Christ's life. How does that have any bearing on what Christ was actually like or what Christianity is/isn't, how it came to be, etc, etc? That's like me drawing a picture book of Set fucking Osiris and claiming this shows that Set of ancient Egypt was gay and, thus, evil was considered gay. Ever since Christ's supposed death and resurrection there have been hundreds of interpretations and stories and gospels and shit written to the point where you can pick and choose any of them and hold that line of thought and that's your reality. Hell, that's where all the Christian derivations come from: the differing perspectives on the same shit.
Detritus is more on the right track here with regards to viewing all this stuff. You have to take in ALL the context from the history to philosophies to culture to location to language to the food, drink, etc, etc. Problem is that there's very little from the timeframe we're looking at that's concrete; there were no blog entries, Jesus didn't leave a NAS lying around with his thoughts, feelings, and pr0n, and there's a great possibility that everything coming before and after and during Christ's life/death/resurrection/ascension was altered to suit the needs of few/many. This is what leads to things like pictures of a shamanic Jesus or 'amendments' to kabbalah texts or writing down oral law... Even at the time there was 'Christianity' and there was 'Gnostic Christianity' There becomes such a focus on specifics and peculiarities that the BIG GREAT picture of it all gets lost. Funny, this is kinda what the Gospel of Thomas says when it refers to the Kingdom of Heaven already here but man cannot see it.
Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
One of the problems of the Jesus/Horus relationship is the lack of a second half. As early as 2650BC (a few years before Christ) there was an established duality between Horus and Set, a sharing if you will, a yin-yang kind of setup. They were considered to be forever in conflict within the sphere of 'eternity' (ma'at), be really are one: life (horus) and death (set)... which could be seen as Jesus' death/resurrection, but there's more. See, the pharoh's of this second dynasty where identified with both gods at the same time, embodying the 'essence' of both in equilibrium. Both are elements of the universe that cannot be ignored, neither can destory the other, rather the result is the conflicting forces playing their role in the Egyptian view of the universe and the Egyptian conception of the state.
This is very important to keep in mind. The Egyptian mythos was all based in the ma'at- a goddess, but more so it was reality like dao or dharma or rta. Ma'at was what made the sun rise, the rivers flood, etc, etc and thus represented the world view at the time. It was the pharoh's duty to uphold ma'at much like Aryans upholding rta. Even in the afterlife, bodies are weighed against the feather of ma'at, akin to seeing if the person led a life of harmony and in balance.
I say all this because therein lies a great deal of depth to the Egyptian way, far more so than a simple 'Horus = sun = Jesus' idea of 'Osiris = died/res = Jesus' view. The depth at which Horus and Set and Ra and all those played a part in the life of the Egyptians is far far far greater than a simple 'Oh I'll go to the temple and pray to the rain god to make it rain.' It's very important to look at the big picture to get a sense of what might actually be going on instead of picking up a far out radical book or three and basing things off that. That's all I'm trying to say.... that and I think if you do so you might draw different conclusions about things
Wow Gaun a Voice of Reason??? WTF is up with the world? anyways i like Egyptians lore i think it is interesing. All of sudden i feel like Playing Persona 3. Great game by the way.