Who you going to vote for Prez?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kotoll, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. Blatant Guest

    That reflects money shifting from our country to others, it does not take into account what happens to that money when it arrives. China takes that money and buys US T-Bill. Yep T-Bills. That money flows back into the US to shore up our dollar. Now why would China care to buy T-Bills? Well if our dollar weakens then their fixed rate money no longer is worth as much.

    Point? That is only half of a picture.

    Here is part of the other half:

  2. Drakkul Banned

    I have a way to fix that tax all religious organizations truly think about it.
    We woudl be the richest nation on the planet and disaband all the crazy fucked up ones.
  3. Drakkul Banned

    On Obama:

    Source of link:

    Like Father, Like Son
    By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Monday, August 18, 2008 4:20 PM PT

    Election '08: Barack Obama's economic blueprint sounds like one his communist father tried to foist on Kenya 40 years ago, with massive taxes and succor shrouded as "investments."


    IBD Series: The Audacity Of Socialism


    As a Nairobi bureaucrat, Barack Hussein Obama Sr. advised the pro-Western Kenyan government there to "redistribute" income through higher taxes. He also demonized corporations and called for massive government "investment" in social programs.

    Barack Obama Sr., who died in 1982 at age 46 in a Kenya car crash.
    Writing in a 1965 scholarly paper, Obama's late father slammed the administration of then-President Jomo Kenyatta for moving the Third World country away from socialism toward capitalism. He chafed at the idea of relying on private investors — who earn "dividends" on their venture capital — to develop the country's fledgling economy.

    "What is more important is to find means by which we can redistribute our economic gains to the benefit of all," said the senior Obama, a Harvard-educated economist. "This is the government's obligation." The "means" he had in mind were confiscatory taxes on a scale that redefines the term "progressive taxation."

    "Theoretically," he wrote, "there is nothing that can stop the government from taxing 100% of income so long as the people get benefits from the government commensurate with their income which is taxed."

    Therefore, he added, "I do not see why the government cannot tax those who have more and syphon some of these revenues into savings which can be utilized in investment for future development."

    As Obama's father saw it, taxes couldn't be high enough, so long as the collective benefited. "Certainly there is no limit to taxation if the benefits derived from public services by society measure up to the cost in taxation which they have to pay," he said. "It is a fallacy to say that there is this limit, and it is a fallacy to rely mainly on individual free enterprise to get the savings."

    His son is also pushing massive taxes and "investments" in social programs — at the expense of free enterprise. Sen. Obama wants to raise the top marginal income-tax rate to at least 39%, while increasing Social Security taxes on those with higher incomes by completely removing the payroll cap. That means many entrepreneurs would be paying 12.4% (6.2% on employer and 6.2% on employee) on Social Security payroll taxes alone, plus the 2.9% on Medicare taxes, for a total federal tax rate of 54%.

    In addition, Obama wants to jack up the capital-gains tax rate and reinstate the death tax.

    Echoing his father, he argues that the government should impose "tax laws that restore some balance to the distribution of the nation's wealth."

    And likewise, he asserts that the nation's wealth ought to be rechanneled by government into "investments" in the economy and welfare programs that create "a new American social compact."

    "We can only compete if our government makes the investments that give us a fighting chance" in the global economy, the Democrat presidential hopeful said in his 2006 book, "The Audacity of Hope." "And if we know that our families have some net beneath which they cannot fall."

    "Training must be expanded," his father proposed as one of his government "investments." Likewise, Sen. Obama wants to "invest" billions more in federal jobs retraining.

    His father's critique of Kenya's economic policy was published in the East Africa Journal under the title "Problems Facing Our Socialism." One discovers — after reading just a few pages into his eight-page tract, where he waxes quixotic about "communal ownership of major means of production" — that he wasn't criticizing the government for being too socialistic, but not socialistic enough.

    Obama Sr. described his own economic plan, his counterproposal, as it were, as "scientific socialism — inter alia — communism." Yes, Obama's father was a communist who wanted to put socialist theory into action — by "force."

    He trusted the collective over the individual, a theme he successfully instilled in his son, also Harvard-educated, with whom he visited once for a full month in Hawaii, even speaking to his prep school class. He kept up correspondence with his son through his college years.

    (Media accounts portray Obama's father as being completely out of his life after leaving his mother and him at age 2. But Obama's first book, "Dreams From My Father," reveals that he remained an influential force in his life. Obama's first autobiography was devoted to "my father.")

    Listen to what "the Old Man," as Obama and his siblings called him, wrote in proposing government-run farms: "If left to the individual, consolidation will take a long time to come. We have to look at priorities in terms of what is good for society, and on this basis we may find it necessary to force people to do things they would not do otherwise."

    He explained that "the government should restrict the size of farms that can be owned by one individual throughout the country."

    More evil than individuals, Obama's father believed, are heads of corporations. More evil still are the bankers and investors, who conspire to control the world through their evil capitalist system.

    "One who has read Marx cannot fail to see that corporations are not only what Marx referred to as the advanced stage of capitalism," he wrote. "But Marx even called it finance capitalism by which a few would control the finances of so many, and through this, have not only economic power but political power as well."

    It's clear from Sen. Obama's own writings and speeches that he too is no fan of business or our system of "chaotic and unforgiving capitalism," as he wrote in "Audacity." He's fond of bashing Wall Street "greed" and the post-Reagan rise of individual investing over government investing. He wants to roll back the "Ownership Society." He resents the profit motive and individuals "on the make."

    "Rather than vilify the rich," he laments, "we hold them up as role models, and our mythology is steeped in stories of men on the make."

    This is no small point. The man who wants to be the nation's CEO actually believes we're living in a feudal society where the rich plunder the poor. And he thinks they should not only be vilified but punished.

    "The problems of poverty and racism, the uninsured and the unemployed are rooted in the desire among those at the top of the social ladder to maintain their wealth and status whatever the cost," he wrote. "Solving these problems will require changes in government policy."

    That is, massive taxation, among other things (or "inter alia," as his "brilliant" father would say).

    Obama wrote in "Dreams From My Father" that he was trying to impress his father by taking a low-paying job organizing and agitating in the Chicago ghetto right out of college. "I did feel that there was something to prove to my father," he said.

    Yet, suspiciously, he does not once mention his father's communist leanings in an entire book dedicated to his memory. No doubt he wanted to keep that hidden. All he tells readers is that his father was pushed out of the Kenyatta administration. He does not explain why.

    "Word got back to Kenyatta that the Old Man was a troublemaker and he was called in to see the president," Obama wrote, quoting his half-sister, "because he could not keep his mouth shut." About what, we aren't told.

    However, Obama writes sympathetically of a comrade of his father, Oginga Odinga, who stepped down as vice president and tried to start his own party. He too was angry that President Kenyatta was letting private investors buy up businesses and land "that should be redistributed to the people," Obama said.

    By 1967, two years after Obama Sr. penned his paper, Odinga had been placed under house arrest for holding a rally that turned into a riot.

    Like Obama's father, Odinga was a member of the Luo tribe of Kenya. His son, Raila Odinga, ran for president in 2006. That year, Obama traveled to Kenya and appeared with Odinga at rallies where he criticized the pro-U.S. government Odinga wanted to oust.

    When he lost the election the next year, despite Obama's tacit endorsement, angry Odinga supporters crying fraud sparked riots that resulted in some 1,500 deaths. Amid his ancestral country's civil unrest, Obama took time out from the campaign trail to phone Odinga to voice his support.

    After weeks of violence, Odinga was granted a power-sharing deal. He's now acting prime minister.

    He's also a something of a communist like his father. An East German-trained engineer, he named his oldest son after Fidel Castro. Paralleling him, Sen. Obama wants to open dialogue with Cuba and once proposed lifting the trade embargo.

    The two sons have much in common. However, the son who would lead the U.S. learned from his father's mistakes and keeps his "mouth shut." Obama learned that revealing his real beliefs can jeopardize his quest for the power needed to put his "redistribution" plans into action.
  4. Blatant Guest

    Investors Business Daily also carries editorials and columns on topics from "economics and government to politics and culture"[2]. Its editorials generally take a conservative to libertarian stance, and have been popular with conservative and libertarian bloggers. It carries columns from writers "On The Left and On The Right"[3], including L. Brent Bozell, Richard Cohen, E. J. Dionne, Victor Davis Hanson, Charles Krauthammer, and Thomas Sowell. Pulitzer-winning cartoonist Michael Ramirez has worked for IBD since late 2005. Investors Business Daily also publishes editorials skeptical about global warming and the proposed solutions to fight climate change. The newspaper is often criticized for being excessively devoted to large corporations.

    Best to see all of a picture than just part of it.
  5. Torric Lord

    The House is controlled by the Democrats as is the Senate.
    And it's ARE republicans. Nice try though.


    EDIT: and why the hell do you fucks keep mentioning Obama's middle name? It's irrelevant. I have never heard or read of John McCain's middle name once.
  6. thorizdin Administrator

    Drak, you really ought to research shit before regurgitating someone else's idiocy. He met his father once past the age of two (at age 10) and the book is _not_ a dedication or homage to his natural or step father but is instead an examination of the life of Obama Jr.

    I'd advise you read the article that Obama Senior wrote in full rather than some editorialist's hacked extracts. The complete article is available here:


    Once you get past the language, which is typical of a Harvard economics grad, you can easily see that the article is not in any way shape or form endorsing any system of governance but is instead pointing out the flaws of multiple systems and is most harsh of how virtually all African governments were being run at that time.

    Barack Obama Junior may or may not be a good choice for president, but that choice really should be based on facts and the article you quote is pure spin, to borrow your term. It's a blatant attempt by some idiot to get other idiots to repeat bullshit and seems to be working...
  7. Drakkul Banned

    OMG I didnt know you know whats real and whats not fuck forgive me oh great one,
  8. Torric Lord

    Remarks of Senator Barack Obama - New Hampshire Primary

    "...But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope. For when we have faced down impossible odds; when we've been told that we're not ready, or that we shouldn't try, or that we can't, generations of Americans have responded with a simple creed that sums up the spirit of a people.

    Yes we can.

    It was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the destiny of a nation.

    Yes we can.

    It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail toward freedom through the darkest of nights.

    Yes we can.

    It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness.

    Yes we can.

    It was the call of workers who organized; women who reached for the ballot; a President who chose the moon as our new frontier; and a King who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the Promised Land.

    Yes we can to justice and equality. Yes we can to opportunity and prosperity. Yes we can heal this nation. Yes we can repair this world. Yes we can.

    And so tomorrow, as we take this campaign South and West; as we learn that the struggles of the textile worker in Spartanburg are not so different than the plight of the dishwasher in Las Vegas; that the hopes of the little girl who goes to a crumbling school in Dillon are the same as the dreams of the boy who learns on the streets of LA; we will remember that there is something happening in America; that we are not as divided as our politics suggests; that we are one people; we are one nation; and together, we will begin the next great chapter in America's story with three words that will ring from coast to coast; from sea to shining sea – Yes. We. Can."

    All rhetoric aside, at the moment there is something wrong with our country. We need a change. No one and I mean no one likes change. It's difficult and uneasy to be out of our comfort zone. But I believe as stupid as it sounds, there is a power in word to inspire that change. Take it as you will.
  9. Pwning Lord

    neither candidate is going to fix the influx of illegal immigrants stealing our nations wealth.

    neither will be able to control the outcome of the wars or future wars headed our way, they will be forced to fight and forced to listen to the people and the advisors.

    what people have to understand is that both candidates are bottom of the barrel choices and no matter who wins, america is going to suffer further before it prospers again.

    all we can hope for now is that both candidates pick a great VP and that VP takes charge when the time is right.

    so sad are the times ahead, so sad.
  10. thorizdin Administrator

    Let me say it nicely, go fuck yourself and on the way to get the tweezers read a few books so you don't sound like you're still 16.
  11. thorizdin Administrator

    This is an economic falsity, immigrants (illegal or not) don't steal wealth in any way shape or form they create it here in our country and mainly for people who are native born citizens. We would have a much larger issue with our population bulge (too many old people retiring and not enough young people working) if it weren't for the influx of mainly young, low skill workers from Mexico and the rest of Latin America.

    This is a matter of opinion of course, but in my mind these are the best two candidates we've seen in quite some time.
  12. Agaris New Member

    Obama does seem to have a knack for getting people interested in politics and voting. He is getting people excited from many points of view either because they want to see him in office or they want to see him lose. I think the close primary for the democrats also did a lot to make many people from states with late primaries feel relevant in this election.

    I'm not that enthused about more people voting that don't agree with my views, but I'd rather have more people that disagree with me than more people that are so apathetic they don't care either way. Ug...that sounds like a script from an MTV "Rock the Vote" commercial.
  13. Pwning Lord

    when the illegals start paying taxes and stop getting free medical treatment i might give a fuck about them, easy fix, kick out the illegals, and force the welfare people that arent handicapped to take their jobs and knock out 2 birds one stone.

    a florida hospital spent some 2 million dollars last year on illegals, 1 fucking hospital in miami!!! thats 2 million dollars paid by the government that comes out of my taxes!!!

    i respect you thor, but your opinion on illegal immigration being a positive doesnt set well with me, make the welfare state take their jobs and kick their non tax paying, non license having, non english speaking asses out of my country.
  14. Agaris New Member

    If our economy really needs more low skill workers, then our laws should revamped to allow for the legal immigration of these workers instead of tolerating millions of undocumented people.
  15. Detritus Lord

    Ahhh.... okay, I think we're getting somewhere now.

    On your profile...

    I pwn noobs in RL ghetto neighborhoods

    So this is really where all this hate for Obama comes from? You're just an old school racist? Meh... I don't like Obama because I don't trust democrats after Clinton signed the DMCA and this current congress hasn't shown a single gonad between the lot of them. You should be more forth coming about your irrational xenophobia, it would keep things short and sweet like that.

    "Mexicans are stealing our wealth" is, btw, pretty fucking irrational. I guess you have enough dumbasses to work at your McDonald's there in Virginia, but here in Illinois we actually need more immigrants willing to work shit jobs. I can't drive down a single street here without seeing a half-dozen "Help Wanted" signs for entry level jobs. The kids you'd expect to be filling those positions are too wealthy and already have $80,000 cars their parents bought them. Meanwhile it takes me 5-10 minutes to get a fucking hamburger because every fast food joint is understaffed.

    I'm actually a little impressed, after Webster, Richard Pyror and Mc Hammer, I'd think it would be a challenge to be a racist today.
  16. Borric Der Kriegsminister

    Yes, it does cost a lot to provide emergency (they only kind they can get) medical care, education for children and law enforcement (mostly border patrol) for illegal immigrants. The problem isn't the immigrants themselves. They are far more hard-working and law abiding than many Americans. The problem is the people that hire them. If they couldn't get work, they wouldn't come. They have no way to access the 'welfare state' as you call it. They don't get food stamps, medical cards or government housing. The simple fact is is that these illegals do the jobs that Americans refuse to do. They provide a valuable service to our farming and industrial areas. They work long hours, seven day weeks for very little money. The person who hires them is cheating twice: first not paying a fair wage for services rendered, and second not paying the required payroll taxes. Think about it, these illegals would love to pay taxes and support themselves. They would get at least minimum wage! Even after taxes, they'd still earn far more than they do now.

    In my opinion we should welcome those who come to work hard and earn a living. We need a policy change that allows these immigrants to enter legally, work, pay taxes and eventually earn citizenship. They just want the American dream, and you know what, they're willing to work damn hard for it. Unlike the majority of Americans, they appreciate the freedoms and the ability to raise one's station in life through hard work. America was founded on this. We are a nation of immigrants. All of us have family members that come from somewhere else in the not too distant past. It reminds me of a cartoon strip I saw years ago. It's a white man yelling at a Mexican calling him worthless for coming into his country, stealing jobs and resources, and not speaking the language. He then calls for all illegal immigrants to gather their shit and get out of his country. The final pane shows a Native American looking at the white man and saying, 'I agree with you. Here, I'll help you pack.'

    Those freedoms that you spent defending Pwning are valuable. Even with our international reputation in the shitter, people still want to come to America and try to change their lives. We're all immigrants and it's the ultimate in hypocrisy to tell a hard-working group of people no, becuase they aren't from here and don't speak the language. Bring those mexicans in legally, have them pay proper taxes, and give them a chance to scrape out a better life. I find your comments to be profoundly racist and un-american. But then again, I'm sure your family have been here since the last ice age, 13,500 years ago...
  17. Agaris New Member

    This makes it sound like you only care about maintaining our source of cheap labor. Maybe if there wasn't an abundance of people willing to work for pennies, then employers would be forced to pay laborers a wage that can sustain a higher standard of living.

    Of course, then I might have to pay more for my fresh strawberries. Yeah, that's a bad idea. Let's keep exploiting immigrants instead.
  18. Detritus Lord

    Nah that bullshit might work for other folks, but I'm the grandson of immigrants. My grandfather came over from Ireland in WW2. After serving this country in the Army during the war he spent the rest of his career as a janitor. It had nothing to do with cheap labor, we need janitors and he had no other skills that we'd hire an immigrant for. 2 Generations later I'm at the top of the food-chain and as I type this I have immigrants doing my landscaping. If they work hard to put their kids through school they too will have grand children in my position.
  19. thorizdin Administrator

    Absolutely correct, immigration is broken and there are good reasons to make changes but overall economic impact is not one of those reasons. The problem actually isn't that complicated from a purely logical and systematic point of view. However people are very emotionally attached to these issues (in large part because pundits of all stripes want them to be) so logic gets replaced by FUD, nationalism, and greed.
  20. Hobohuman New Member

    The main thing people see when they read this is that your grandfather served in the army. SERVED the USA. I would not have a problem if they came across the border and joined the military to fight for this country.

    I am from Texas and the majority of the immigrants there are poorly skilled and do a meager job and dont care to better themselves. Yes, there are a few of them that do a good days work and attempt to learn english and better thier life. Those immigrants i do not have a problem with. Its the 1/3 of them that deal drugs and in total about 4/5 of them that ask for work and dont even do a decent job. I have heard talk about immigrants doing farm work and other low skilled jobs like that. I truely think that if they do not get paid a fair wage its just another form of slavery, except with out the whips, beating, and what not. Also on this subject; immigrants that come from the middle east get paid to work here. I know this because back in my home town i knew the manager of an exxon. I was good friends with him and he told me that the state pays them to work here. Every worker there drove a 30k+ car had a house that was partialy paid by the government. But ofcourse i have no hard proof of this so it is all hearsay.

    Thats my opinion on immigrants

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