Who you going to vote for Prez?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kotoll, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. thorizdin Administrator

    It's far from easy to remove ~15 million people, that isn't going to happen. Welfare roles are small the comprehensive reforms passed during the Clinton administration (with a Republican Congress).

    First off:



    The total amount of amount of money spent on any low income household (which is 4-5 people aggregating less than $23k per year) is high and costs somewhere around $22k per household per year excluding costs that aren't tied to population, i.e. national defense, roads, parks, public libraries, spent nuclear fuel storage, and a plethora of over items don't increase because someone comes here from Guatemala. Now, we currently pay around $41k per person per year for every person in Iraq. The cost data on low income households comes from a study sponsored by the Heritage foundation and is the gold standard for conservative research. It's also the study that is most frequently used to point out why immigration (legal or illegal) is "bad" for the country. Despite having good data the study isn't about immigrants at all, it's about low income families period of which there were 17.7 million during 2004 (the data set they used). However, what the study doesn't say is that ~60% of US citizens get more than they pay in the form of taxes. Nor does it say that a significant portion of illegal immigrants are not families for much or all of their time in the US. In fact, most of the negative impact (correctly pointed out) has much more to do with US families not being able or not be willing to get themselves out of poverty.

    Here are a couple more things to ponder that the pundits won't say. While low income wages declined by 17% in California, the number 1 state for immigration of low income workers, but over the same time period (1998-present) they declined by 57% in Ohio which is ranks near the bottom in illegal and legal immigration.

    If it were not for immigration (legal and illegal) our population growth would be net zero sometime around 2030 and if we hadn't had the increase in immigration that started in the 90's we would be in the same boat as many countries that have been restrictive on immigration where they are in a population crisis.

    Russia: -0.6%; -22%
    Belarus -0.6%; -12%
    Bulgaria -0.5%; -34%
    Latvia -0.5%; -23%
    Lithuania -0.4%; -15%
    Hungary -0.3%; -11%
    Romania -0.2%; -29%
    Estonia -0.2%; -23%
    Moldova -0.2%; -21%
    Croatia -0.2%; -14%
    Germany -0.2%; -9%
    Czech Republic -0.1%; -8%
    Japan 0%; -21%
    Poland 0%; -17%
    Slovakia 0%; -12%
    Austria 0%; 8% increase
    Italy 0%; -5%
    Slovenia 0%; -5%
    Greece 0%; -4%

    Losing 30 million people out of your population is a huge problem. This is especially true in countries that have a "Baby Boom" generation like us, where there will be a funding crisis even as the working population continues to increase.

    The projections are all over the board, but take a look at this NC study at the real economic impact of their immigration wave


    I don't have any problem with honest debate. I do have problems when information is distorted to make arguments easier to convince people, which is one of the big reasons I don't like how our system works. People want simple answers but the problems that we face aren't simple, but politicians (of all stripes) know that telling people that X or Y is the problem and just doing Z will fix things.

    First realize that the majority of citizens _cost more_ than they contribute. That's a reality in our system where 37% of the total budget comes from the top 1% of tax payers.

    What the anti-immigration folks really don't want to hear is that immigrants are much more likely to open their own business than US born citizens. They also don't want to consider that immigrants are (as a group) the most determined and hardworking in their native land. Even if the immediate cost is negative, we really don't care because it increases our chances of getting someone in the top 40% of income that actually contributes something tax wise.

  2. thorizdin Administrator

    Anecdotal evidence is fine, but do you really know that 1/3 are drug dealers etc? Adding stats without references weakens your position IMO.

    Most immigrants here in the metro Atlanta and North Georgia area are working in construction, landscaping, carpet mills (Dalton especially), and food processing. When we were packing up my in laws to move we couldn't get anyone to even come clean up the yard for less than $10 per hour. I don't believe that most are in exploitative situations, though I'm sure there are exceptions. I'd be interested in hearing more about your friend at Exxon, I'm not familiar with any program like that but there are too many to keep track of. Are you certain it wasn't a program that his native government sponsored? I know several Middle-Eastern countries, the Saudis especially, do some similar things for workers in the oil industry living abroad.
  3. Pwning Lord

    thor, all im asking for is to stop giving illegals medical treatment for free, and make their asses pay taxes, like we should just make them all citizens and give them all SS#'s and it would be less of a burden then it is imo. they want to live here so badly, lets make all the illegals legal and see how long they stay when they have to pay for their anchor baby to be born and taxes and have to earn a real job.
  4. Hobohuman New Member

    I had some shady ass friends when i grew up. So i did know alot of what was going on in the shadow's. Never took part of it but knew of it, thru friends and family connections. so of the immigrants in and around Dallas "not DFW" i knew of quite a few illigals. They use them becuse if they get caught.. whats gonna happen they get deported back to mexico and then what? thier connections in the states just gets them back here. So yes a good bit of them were dealing with drugs and trafficing of drugs. But that life is long behind me now. heh id even say it was a different life that i lived.

    I cant remember the specifics of it since the last time i talked to him was roughly 8 years ago. What i do know is that he was not a rich man, he did have help coming here. When he started at Exxon he was driving a beater and with in a month he had a 1999 camaro and then about a year later he had a BMW. So either he lied to me about government helping him or he was doing something else to get the cash. I do know tho.. He did get charged for buying cheaper grade gas and mixing it with Exxon grade gas and selling it at higher prices. You cant quote me on anything specific since it was so long ago and much has happened since then.

    BTW you can never but any proof or references when your talking about immigrants. Its not like they sign a piece of paper that says yea i cross the border at this spot on this day. Everything I wrote was from personal experience. Take it or leave it as that, some ones personal experience.
  5. Drakkul Banned

    I work for a non profit organization and well when your non profit you cannot turn away any one who comes to your hospital. Getting rid of illegals good luck with it they have been fighting over it for years, some things need to change if your pregnant and you have your kid here you arent a citizen regardless.
    There is just to many loop holes in our system and we need folks who can think in regards to fixing things and not upsetting a few million people when they do make a change.
  6. Drakkul Banned

    Pls dont give em all SS numbers you will kill our ss system like it was destroyed in sweden with the muslims that they allowed in and drained their ss system and welfare system.
  7. thorizdin Administrator

    Please don't misunderstand, I don't consider illegal immigration to be the right way of getting what we need in terms of population. Immigration is broken, the problem is that the current system is underfunded, understaffed, and incredibly slow. What I don't want is our first response to be slam the door, in part because we can't without spending tremendous resources and in part because the effect of achieving that goal would likely be disastrous if a new and much more efficient guest worker and legal immigration system didn't go into effect almost immediately.

    The next problem you bring up is the cost of a child and that applies to any family, the burden on our hospitals for indigent care isn't an immigrant problem. In fact over the entire nation immigrant's cause less than 20% of the indigent care charges for hospitals. The vast majority are from poor US citizens.
  8. Pibbz Guest

    Ah, I love these threads. I would actually like to thank everyone in here for posting thought out arguments. Especially Thor, Borric, and Agaris.

    I'm not very educated in politics so I get very interested in these types of threads. I don't watch TV either since I'm aware of the misinformation that can be spread... and reality shows bore the hell out of me.

    During the early debates late last year I was drawn mostly towards Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul as these two seemed to be the only ones who had answers, while the rest of the candidates would dodge the questions with indirect answers.

    I personally, most likely won't end up voting as I'm undecided and there's just so much garbage to sort through that it's not easy to justify what is absolute fact. What can "ignorant and uneducated Americans" do? Where can they turn for reliable information? Even the most honest and willing don't have many options, nor know where to look. It's not a fault of the individual, but the fault of the resources provided to them.

    After hours of reading through various sources I find myself simply not caring. All I see is a country I'm not pleased with and fellow citizens I'm not pleased with, and whoever is elected in office better get his shit together.

    Thanks for the great read guys!
  9. Hobohuman New Member

    I say we just invade Mexico and take the country for ourselfs. EEERRRR KILL KILL MARINE CORPS.... Rofl,

    I am just kidding, dont take this post serously :p

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