Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mephiston, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. I've had this ongoing debate with a friend of mine on Facebook about this whole ordeal thats been going on.

    I'm of the opinion that while evidence of corruption and scandle should be brought forth, information that is compromising to the safety and security of soldier and civilian should be left in the shadows.

    My friend, on the other hand, believes that this website is a magic transparency and accountability button that will force the world leaders to stop lying to their citizens and lead to a better world, and that any sacrifice in lives or global standing to achieve that goal is worth it.

    So I'm just curious if anyone else has thoughts on this.
  2. Salohcin Member

    Well the info posted is a bit sensitive & none of our biz. No, they will not stop lieine to us. That is Politics 101, lie to get/keep your job.
  3. Palebrew Inactive Elder

    I think it's another one of those issues the government would rather not have to decide on and will just waterboard those involved.
  4. Verm Lord

    So why stand for it and let it continue? When do people say enough of this shit? I'm a conspiracy nut, but I honestly think this is just a can of worms that will be used to censor the internet and / or give government the control they want over the internet.
  5. There is a lot of shit out there that happens behind the scenes that you, or I (even as a soldier myself) do not want to know.

    Be happy with what you have or you may lose your precious video games.
  6. Xenogrant[Combine] Active Member

    Was it wiki leaks that showed a video of helicopter pilots making fun of civilians they just blew up? I'm sure a few people got beheaded after that just to even things out. Not a bad thing really, makes people think twice when they know there will be repercussions. If it wasn't for the video they wouldn't even have gotten reprimanded, even with the video being made public i never followed up to see what happened to them, assuming it all got swept under the rug.
  7. This right here is part of the argument I tried to make to him. Guy I'm arguing with in question moved to cali like two weeks ago and overnight became some anti govt zealot whereas not even a year ago he was seriously considering joining the military.

    My thinking on keeping secrets is that, essentially, we don't live in a world of black and white absolutes. Ignoring the 'politics lulz', the only way a completely open and honest world system would work would be if everyone were completely open and honest. A Kant style system of ethical absolutes, in my opinion, fails the litmus test when people start refusing to play by the rules. The second one person realizes that lying, cheating, and stealing provide him an advantage (so long as he does not get caught), he's got a serious advantage over the competition.

    Fuck, deceit is an ingrained survival instinct in us for a reason. Because it often works.

    And yeah, there may be things 'we don't want to know'. But more importantly there are things we 'don't need or shouldn't know'. Things that, should they be public, have the potential to put lives in danger.

    I know I love to get a verbal boner over my job, but in this case its hard to avoid because it's a perfect example. The job I do is critical to a hefty portion of florida for everything from disaster relief to just plain daily functioning of the population in general. Getting my ass blown up being a shitty way to die aside, posting a big "SURE WOULD SUCK IF THIS GOT BLOWN UP" list on the internet is a great way to fuck over a lot of people, both directly and otherwise. And the threat of that is very real. One of our sister sites 600 miles north of us found a failed IED on their turf a few months back. This is U.S. soil by the way, not bumfuckistan.

    So, I guess I take this sort of stuff kinda personal.

    Yeah, expose corruption in business and government. We need that, its why we have whistleblower laws. But when you get into a serious dickwaving contest with the western world and put lives other than your own in danger, simply to prove some misguided point, you lose whatever moral high ground you claim to have and deserve a serious smackdown.
  8. Likort Destroyer of Forum Trolls

    basically what Assange said about a year ago was like, if leaking material hurts a company/person/country he personally liked, this wouldn't stop him from leaking it, as if there is something that can be leaked and the victim has a problem with that, it shouldn't have happened in the first place

    trading security vs freedom (in this case freedom of speech) is always a juicy topic, most people would tend towards freedom, especially as you usually get a lot less security after giving up your freedom than you were promised.

    the current US vs Assange situation is fucked anyways, after the leaks of the iraq video, the iraq documents, and now the diplomatic papers, and on the other hand the rape charges, which btw - IT'S A TRAP lol - only became possible as in Sweden fucking without a comdom counts as rape, now it's just a gloves-off vendetta from both sides.
  9. Xenogrant[Combine] Active Member

    the wiki page makes for an interesting read, as their objectives are quite noble:

    Also I don't think it's just freedoms of speech here:
  10. I support freedom of speech, and I think that the corruption I mentioned above should be exposed. Hell, I support the concept of a site like wikileaks....up until it starts putting lives in danger for whatever reason you want to spin it as. I just think theres a line you shouldn't cross and in this case it has been crossed. Its irresponsible.

    That said, the guy in me who loves to watch a trainwreck in progress is really curious about whats in that 'insurance' file. At 1.4 gigs its gotta be good.
  11. Anwedie Lord

    This information being leaked is chicken shit and not very damaging to anything(most of the stuff leaked is common sense if you stop to think for a few minutes now and then). Real diplomatic conversations done at the highest levels have no stenoclerks present to write this stuff down.

    For example does anyone think that Saudi Arabia didn't want someone to blow up Iran's nuclear facilities(including Israel doing the bombing)? The Saudi royal family values oil revenue and succession over all else. Iran with nukes will be able to throw their weight around causing the OPEC area to be tumultuous(just like Saddam did in Iraq, a factor in why they asked us to remove him by force). On the flip side, did anyone think that Saudi Arabia wasn't supporting terrorism? They pay off the higher tier terrorists to not carry out plans in Saudi Arabia and every now and then terrorist organizations turn over low level operatives to be captured for PR for the Saudis so they look good. Also the names of the Afghanis cooperating with us, are in no mincing of words, disposable. It's a cruel world and perception isn't always reality. I haven't seen anything Earth shattering in any of the leaks yet.
  12. Ozzone Lord

    Americans would like more transparency with our government, but posting tons of damaging stuff on the web, and letting the whole world know it's there, makes everything our government did transparent to the whole world, including our enemies.

    I don't know how many of you feel overall about this, but that one fact alone makes what he did, and threatens to do even more, wrong.
  13. Tarvold New Member

    I feel that the majority of information is of little to no use to most folks. Hell, most people don't even understand it. But the little that has pertinent meaning isn't going to do anyone any good. For one, the government will just get more stringent with its document security and this certainly won't help transparency in the future. If anything, the government will become clammed up even more and impose stricter rules on the internet (as someone already mentioned). So Assange wants to the right thing, but in reality, this is not the way to go about it.
  14. Koribundar Inactive Chapter Member

    24hr news cycle. Remember that NPR dude that got fired? And all the controversy? No? Meh, some famous person is going to screw up pretty soon and that'll be the new shiny thing the networks will focus on for a few days.

    As for wikileaks posting this stuff. Who cares. If there is going to be any heads cut off, go after who ever leaked it. Honestly, that's where the whole break down started and should end.

    A dumb broad lost an IFF decoder while we were deployed in Aviano. Now that's news if leaked could have caused some serious issues. Or a coked out navigator that nailed a school instead of a supply depot. Diplomatic messages? Come on.
  15. Gaunsaku Chill Dude

    People whine about the "important facilities" and shit at stake. It's pure fucking common sense.

    You want some strategic targets for every nation? Here are a few:

    Internet pipeline into/out of the country
    Internet providers
    Sanitation providers
    Utility (water/electricity) providers
    Any military installation
    Any major transportation area (bridges, dams, whatever)
    Any datacenter (ie Rackspace's Dulles and Dallas buildings)

    With half a clue you have plenty of incredibly damaging targets to any nation in the world that wields any kind of power. BAE facility in UK? Ooooo, fancy pants.

    Let's acknowledge that American diplomats are gossip queens and move on please. All this talk about assassination and fucking with the dude's site and even the Library of Congress blocking access is political pressure bullshit. Chill pill, fix leaks, and move on.
  16. Koribundar Inactive Chapter Member

    You do realize gaun, after posting that, some pimple faced kid in a military uniform has read it after being flagged by a supercomputer, and you now have a little red dot on your house so the missile knows where to strike. Right?
  17. El Topo Lord

    I think Gaunsaku and a few others put it fairly well. No one is going to die from these leaks. I highly doubt any major US spy or informants name was leaked, and if there was such a leak it would be easy to find out who leaked the info. Its a nice media talking point when u can say peoples lives are in danger. Breach in security is very unlikely. As for using this as a reason to end internet freedom, I'm sure lobbyists will add this to the long list unsubstantiated reason to remove internet rights. I'm sure some similar sites will be taken down however. As for terrorist, where are they? Maybe your talking about the various patsies that were helped by the CIA to enter the US, and scare everyone into thinking terrorists still exist. There is no such thing as terrorist networks that weren't help by some government to scare the populace to achieve some political end. Maybe I'm the only one that sees the red flags here. It has come out recently that some of the wikileaks docs might very well be fake and disinfo. There is a lot of stuff that still needs to be sorted out about this news item. While this all gets played out the real news is either overlooked or isn't reported.
  18. Miira Lord

    I honestly think it will be mostly irrelevant. Americans are already aware that our government does some really shady shit, but are more interested in celebrity news. Foreign governments also know that they all spy on each other.
  19. Valor Buffalo Rancher

    These documents will only inspire less transparency while being told that our government is amazingly transparent. This does nothing to help the future, just forces some accountability for the past... So, no... the page isnt going to change anything.
  20. Verm Lord

    Just curious how many people have read these leaks - the one that I found most shocking was how private contractors for America were throwing "dancing boy parties" where Afghan boys dress up as girls and then dance seductively and then auctioned off at the end of the show to the highest bidders. I don't think I need to bring it any farther than that. But if you got a stomach to handle it - read that cable. It's pretty fucking sick actually but if you want to see the shit they don't want getting out - here is a fine example - BTW paid for with all your tax money :)

Share This Page